Stewart Downing..

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  villanfromluton on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:14 pm

indeed I do mean the way things are going JPR, dont you agree Embarassed
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:15 pm

Avfc_4eva_Sotc wrote:Think the scale of rating a player is being used a bit bizarrely here.

If Young who was probably the best player in the whole 4 years under MON, in a team that finished 6th out of 92 professional football teams is average, then what to we count players who aren't anywhere near as good further down the league, in the league below, or below that, or below that. All of which must be better footballers then most people otherwise we would all be chucking in our day job to earn 2k a week at a lower league club.

He isn't world class, he was good, very good, really when you look at it in that context he is a great footballer, not world class but not average not by any means.

Mark, I have no idea what you on about me saying what to a West Ham fan, but as for the bit where you said he only joined Villa because we chucked more money at it, well excuse me but If I remember correctly it was West Ham that pushed his price up to £9.6m before we even bid for him and he turned you down (that was when egg head would have paid any wage demands) and then we had to match the fee already agreed for West Ham, so as usual your talking out your fecking arse mate.

We're talking PL, not 92 clubs. .
Within the history of the PL, he would rank no better than average, on his record as it stands. There have been very many players who have played in the PL who are world class, Young is nowhere near that class, that makes him, as it stands at present, no better than average.
Remember, Young could not command a regular place in a very poor international side because he's just an average player.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jpr60 on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:18 pm

villanfromluton wrote:indeed I do mean the way things are going JPR, dont you agree Embarassed


Anything might happen Lutes, the way things are going! Very Happy

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:33 pm

jpr60 wrote:
villanfromluton wrote:indeed I do mean the way things are going JPR, dont you agree Embarassed


Anything might happen Lutes, the way things are going! Very Happy

What way are things going? Huh

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  villanfromluton on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:34 pm

jak wrote:
jpr60 wrote:
villanfromluton wrote:indeed I do mean the way things are going JPR, dont you agree Embarassed


Anything might happen Lutes, the way things are going! Very Happy

What way are things going?

Only one way for our teams, I fear Crying or Very sad
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  roadoftrinity on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:39 pm

jak wrote:

We're talking PL, not 92 clubs. .
Within the history of the PL, he would rank no better than average, on his record as it stands. There have been very many players who have played in the PL who are world class, Young is nowhere near that class, that makes him, as it stands at present, no better than average.
Remember, Young could not command a regular place in a very poor international side because he's just an average player.


So you are saying in football terms, there are 2 classes, well I guess 3

Shit
Average
World Class

So basically, if you look at the Arsenal team, would you say that everyone other than Fabragas and Van Persie are average? Well, apart from the obvious ones that are shit.


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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Wed Jul 06, 2011 8:55 pm

villanfromluton wrote:
jak wrote:
jpr60 wrote:
villanfromluton wrote:indeed I do mean the way things are going JPR, dont you agree Embarassed


Anything might happen Lutes, the way things are going! Very Happy

What way are things going?

Only one way for our teams, I fear Crying or Very sad

Do not despair. I reckon we're both safe. How can clubs compete against the reckless spending at Man City. They're spending bundles on top of bundles. Players coming in and who's gonna leave, for a massive pay cut?
The whole situation is crazy. I've supported The Arsenal all my life, I know that with the present set up we just cannot compete with the likes of City, Chelsea and to an extent Man U.
I know that this situation cannot reign for long, indeed there are already some restrictions planned to limit the content of squads.
Quite frankly, I'm glad we don't have some Sheikh or Oligarch running the club into a brick wall. If that means we're mid table for a while, so be it. The powers that be will have to intervene at some stage.
Arsenal and Villa's impressive history was not achieved with a cash bomb. As far as The Arsenal are concerned, I'm proud of that.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 pm

roadoftrinity wrote:
jak wrote:

We're talking PL, not 92 clubs. .
Within the history of the PL, he would rank no better than average, on his record as it stands. There have been very many players who have played in the PL who are world class, Young is nowhere near that class, that makes him, as it stands at present, no better than average.
Remember, Young could not command a regular place in a very poor international side because he's just an average player.


So you are saying in football terms, there are 2 classes, well I guess 3

Shit
Average
World Class

So basically, if you look at the Arsenal team, would you say that everyone other than Fabragas and Van Persie are average? Well, apart from the obvious ones that are shit.


Without running through the whole squad, I would say the vast majority are no more than average, though we also have our fair share of below average players. So yes I'd agree with you whilst hesitating to use the word 'shit' (Denilson and Rosicky excepted Very Happy ).

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Avfc_4eva_Sotc on Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:36 pm

So we are not comparing him with all footballers of today, but instead with the history of players in one league, logical i'm sure.

Even so you can't just say everyone is average we can all clearly see that some players are better then others, you can't just count them all as the same, a team full of average players in the premierleague is going down. There are average, good, very good, poor, excellent, brilliant, world class (very few) in the premierleague. We have some average players, we have some good ones, Downing is a good player, Young was an excellent player. Its madness to say for instance that a group of players who finish 4th are average and so is a group of players who finish 12th.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:20 pm

Avfc_4eva_Sotc wrote:So we are not comparing him with all footballers of today, but instead with the history of players in one league, logical i'm sure.

Even so you can't just say everyone is average we can all clearly see that some players are better then others, you can't just count them all as the same, a team full of average players in the premierleague is going down. There are average, good, very good, poor, excellent, brilliant, world class (very few) in the premierleague. We have some average players, we have some good ones, Downing is a good player, Young was an excellent player. Its madness to say for instance that a group of players who finish 4th are average and so is a group of players who finish 12th.
But an average side can win the PL. That happened this very year. Who'll tell me that this was a high class Man U side?
The present crop of PL players is NOT of a very high standard, hence I rate Young as just an
average player based on the standard of what I would call very good players that I have seen previously. That's how I judge players and I form my opinion of their ability. How else?
If you want to blinker yourself and judge him amongst today's crop that's fine but a bit short sighted in my opinion. The quality of the players in the PL is at a bit of a low ebb in my view.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Avfc_4eva_Sotc on Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:50 pm

You can't compare players of today with players of the past, better understanding and improvements in technology body science means players are fitter today. Improvements in tactical play, who's to say that 'fantastic' team of the past would be able to play in the same manner against todays current teams, would they look as good or would they be contained better or actually find them selves lacking fitness wise. I would say the league is far more competitive now due to a massive influx of foreign players over the past 15 years that means teams outside the top half have better teams and thats why the teams at the top have struggled more then the teams at the top 15 years ago, thats why they looked better. You can argue against that I'm sure but its something that no one can discount and thats why you have to compare them with the current crop of players out there, players they prove them selves against each week.

Main problem here is oldies (no offence) have a blinkered starry eyed view of teams/players from their past. Game has moved on in so many aspects I'd reckon that some top teams from the past would not be able to compete with the fitness technical ability and tactics of current 'average' teams. Something that can never be put to the test though.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Jay.P.A on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:24 am

Avfc_4eva_Sotc wrote:You can't compare players of today with players of the past, better understanding and improvements in technology body science means players are fitter today. Improvements in tactical play, who's to say that 'fantastic' team of the past would be able to play in the same manner against todays current teams, would they look as good or would they be contained better or actually find them selves lacking fitness wise. I would say the league is far more competitive now due to a massive influx of foreign players over the past 15 years that means teams outside the top half have better teams and thats why the teams at the top have struggled more then the teams at the top 15 years ago, thats why they looked better. You can argue against that I'm sure but its something that no one can discount and thats why you have to compare them with the current crop of players out there, players they prove them selves against each week.

Main problem here is oldies (no offence) have a blinkered starry eyed view of teams/players from their past. Game has moved on in so many aspects I'd reckon that some top teams from the past would not be able to compete with the fitness technical ability and tactics of current 'average' teams. Something that can never be put to the test though.

Fecking excellent post.
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:44 am

Well AVFC, you miss the point.
We are not talking brown boots with cork studs and lace up footballs.
The discussion has been about the PL, the very recent past, where comparisons can surely be made.
Your comments about the top teams struggling more today flies in the face of the facts.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  QBVILLA on Thu Jul 07, 2011 5:58 am

Gotta say teh Arsenal old boys generally speak with a certain amount of sense ableit JPR's one eyedness.However, throughout this thread it's been complete bollocks.For a start an 'average' footballer does not play in the premiership.Young whilst not World Class,(who in the Premiership is? Rooney maybe?fabregas? Well he can't get into the Spanish side) is certainly one of the top players in the league.Sir Alex wouldn't be handing over a £20m fee and £120k a week for a player who is 'average'.So in summary, you fellas are chatting utter cock Very Happy
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  jak on Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:18 am

QBVILLA wrote:Gotta say teh Arsenal old boys generally speak with a certain amount of sense ableit JPR's one eyedness.However, throughout this thread it's been complete bollocks.For a start an 'average' footballer does not play in the premiership.Young whilst not World Class,(who in the Premiership is? Rooney maybe?fabregas? Well he can't get into the Spanish side) is certainly one of the top players in the league.Sir Alex wouldn't be handing over a £20m fee and £120k a week for a player who is 'average'.So in summary, you fellas are chatting utter cock Very Happy

Standards are judged relative to the criteria set. I am talking about the Premier league, of course if we widened that criteria to include all professional players then you would judge most players in the PL as being excellent.
You're right, who in the PL is world class? That's the point, at the moment only one or two but that certainly has not always been the case.
Were the history of the PL written today, where would Young rate? In the pack, average!!
As I said, he has not been able to secure a regular place in a very poor international side because he has not to date been an outstanding player.
Incidentally, didn't Sir Alex sign Veron? Wink

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  QBVILLA on Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:48 am

jak wrote:
QBVILLA wrote:Gotta say teh Arsenal old boys generally speak with a certain amount of sense ableit JPR's one eyedness.However, throughout this thread it's been complete bollocks.For a start an 'average' footballer does not play in the premiership.Young whilst not World Class,(who in the Premiership is? Rooney maybe?fabregas? Well he can't get into the Spanish side) is certainly one of the top players in the league.Sir Alex wouldn't be handing over a £20m fee and £120k a week for a player who is 'average'.So in summary, you fellas are chatting utter cock Very Happy

Standards are judged relative to the criteria set. I am talking about the Premier league, of course if we widened that criteria to include all professional players then you would judge most players in the PL as being excellent.
You're right, who in the PL is world class? That's the point, at the moment only one or two but that certainly has not always been the case.
Were the history of the PL written today, where would Young rate? In the pack, average!!
As I said, he has not been able to secure a regular place in a very poor international side because he has not to date been an outstanding player.
Incidentally, didn't Sir Alex sign Veron? Wink

veron was a top class player, just not suited to the Premiership.I seem to remember Yorke being spoken about in the same terms when he was at Villa.When he got the chance to showcase his talents at United he got plenty of plaudits.Young as a winger, is good enough for any team in the Premiership.IMO an average player wouldn't qualify for that.the fact he hasn't been able to secure a place for England comes down to the opinion of Capello, a man who deemed Beckham surplus to requirements at Real Madrid.As you'll recall Crapello got plenty of stick for not starting with Young last international and in all fairness you can't judge a players ability on his England caps.Phil Neville has more caps than Hoddle,le Tissier and Gascoigne for example.I can't see many people thinking that ugly Phil is better than those three.
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  roadoftrinity on Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:23 am

McLeish has come out today and said that Downing isn't for sale, he spoke to him last week and will speak to him again today. I still think Downing will go, hopefully McLeish will give him a few slaps and make him sign a new contract.

http://www.birminghammail.net/birmingham-sport/aston-villa-fc/aston-villa-news/2011/07/07/aston-villa-stewart-downing-is-not-for-sale-alex-mcleish-97319-29010346/

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Avfc_4eva_Sotc on Thu Jul 07, 2011 9:54 am

I'm not missing the point at all, even if we decide limit our selves to just the premierleague we can still see the game has moved on over the years, sure its easier to compare todays players with the more recent but there has still been large changes in the 20 years of the competition.

Take Villa for instance in 95/96 finished 4th, but only 2 seasons ago the team got more points then the villa of that season and only finished 6th. That suggests that the quality at the top and even middle of the league has improved.

At the end of the day unless we can bring back some players from 10 15 years ago in there prime and watch them make Young look stupid we can't prove that he is average in comparison, we can only compare him to whats out there now, and he has proved him self to be one of the better performers in the league over the years without playing for one of the best teams. He is in no way an average player its a ridiculous notion.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Internazionale_Villa on Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:08 am

Sunderland are signing their 6th player already in John O'Shea, i know most of the signings may not be Villa quality but i would of taken O'Shea, solid all rounder with experience, thats what we need at the back. The season isnt too far away now and we have hardly even been linked with anyone.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  villainies on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:34 pm

Internazionale_Villa wrote:Sunderland are signing their 6th player already in John O'Shea, i know most of the signings may not be Villa quality but i would of taken O'Shea, solid all rounder with experience, thats what we need at the back. The season isnt too far away now and we have hardly even been linked with anyone.

Villa won't make any moves until AM has had a chance to look at the players and speak to them all properly. Noticed the Beeb are stating that Liverpool are considering upping the offer to 18m for Downing. Think he will leave us for that much.
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Internazionale_Villa on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:37 pm

villainies wrote:
Internazionale_Villa wrote:Sunderland are signing their 6th player already in John O'Shea, i know most of the signings may not be Villa quality but i would of taken O'Shea, solid all rounder with experience, thats what we need at the back. The season isnt too far away now and we have hardly even been linked with anyone.

Villa won't make any moves until AM has had a chance to look at the players and speak to them all properly. Noticed the Beeb are stating that Liverpool are considering upping the offer to 18m for Downing. Think he will leave us for that much.

I think hes probably already agreed to join em, just waiting on the clubs to agree a fee. Looks like they want him badly so hes most likely gone. I like how tottenham are dealing with the whole modric thing, wish our owners did this with milner, barry and young

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  villainies on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:40 pm

jak wrote:
QBVILLA wrote:Gotta say teh Arsenal old boys generally speak with a certain amount of sense ableit JPR's one eyedness.However, throughout this thread it's been complete bollocks.For a start an 'average' footballer does not play in the premiership.Young whilst not World Class,(who in the Premiership is? Rooney maybe?fabregas? Well he can't get into the Spanish side) is certainly one of the top players in the league.Sir Alex wouldn't be handing over a £20m fee and £120k a week for a player who is 'average'.So in summary, you fellas are chatting utter cock Very Happy

Standards are judged relative to the criteria set. I am talking about the Premier league, of course if we widened that criteria to include all professional players then you would judge most players in the PL as being excellent.
You're right, who in the PL is world class? That's the point, at the moment only one or two but that certainly has not always been the case.
Were the history of the PL written today, where would Young rate? In the pack, average!!
As I said, he has not been able to secure a regular place in a very poor international side because he has not to date been an outstanding player.
Incidentally, didn't Sir Alex sign Veron? Wink

I reckon that;s a bit harsh on Young Jak. He certainly isn't world class or even a great premiership player but he is a good player. Certainly above premier league average with perhaps the ability to improve at Man U.
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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  roadoftrinity on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:42 pm

Internazionale_Villa wrote:
I think hes probably already agreed to join em, just waiting on the clubs to agree a fee. Looks like they want him badly so hes most likely gone. I like how tottenham are dealing with the whole modric thing, wish our owners did this with milner, barry and young

We did it with Barry for one season, but then he was in the last year of his contract, same with Young. Modric has a five year deal, which they got him to sign just as they qualified for the Champions League.

I'm sure if we qualified for the Champions League, Milner and Young would have happily signed long term deals.

Personally, I think keeping Downing is more important than any of the others, not because I think he is a better player, I think all of the others were better players. Just because McLeish has come in and we need something positive to come out the club. Either than or get rid of Downing and spunk a load of cash on some players.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Internazionale_Villa on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:44 pm

roadoftrinity wrote:
Internazionale_Villa wrote:
I think hes probably already agreed to join em, just waiting on the clubs to agree a fee. Looks like they want him badly so hes most likely gone. I like how tottenham are dealing with the whole modric thing, wish our owners did this with milner, barry and young

We did it with Barry for one season, but then he was in the last year of his contract, same with Young. Modric has a five year deal, which they got him to sign just as they qualified for the Champions League.

I'm sure if we qualified for the Champions League, Milner and Young would have happily signed long term deals.

Personally, I think keeping Downing is more important than any of the others, not because I think he is a better player, I think all of the others were better players. Just because McLeish has come in and we need something positive to come out the club. Either than or get rid of Downing and spunk a load of cash on some players.

Downing has 2 years left, the owners should just come out and say outright he isnt for sale at any price.

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Re: Stewart Downing..

Post  Avfc_4eva_Sotc on Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:46 pm

Next season is going to be shit if Downing goes as well, Bent hardly going to think he has joined an ambitious club is he and he will soon want out the door, hardly looks like the fantastic managerial signing of Mcleish is drawing in the players either...

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