Cleverley

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Re: Cleverley

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:29 pm

I see Ades point, but in general I agree with QB. England's strength right now is pace and physicality. Tippy tappy football doesn't benefit either of those characteristics and we don't have the technical players to play it. A brilliant ball winner would be great, but 3 hard working central midfielders can fill that void. In Walcott, Lennon, Chamberlain, Johnson, Young, Milner we've got players who are comfortable taking on a man and putting the ball into the box. There's no point in trying to be Spain when we're not.

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Re: Cleverley

Post  ADRIAN_1976 on Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:44 pm

No one is saying lets be Spain.. we can't be them.. but we have to adjust and it will take time.. Poland Japan Croatia aren't Spain either but for some reason can keep the ball much better then us with players not as good as what we possess..

I agree three midfielders we need to play due to not having a dominant midfielder.. but then we can't play 4-4-2 and have two out and out wingers.. with one upfront where does Rooney fit in.. is he the lone striker..

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Re: Cleverley

Post  ADRIAN_1976 on Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:45 pm

I think the main problem is the quality of player coming through right now..
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Guest on Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:46 pm

The same Croatia who we destroyed the last two times we played them? The same Poland who didn't get out of their group in the Euros? The same Japan who are ranked 23rd in the world, and have never made it past the second round of a World Cup? I wish we could play to their stellar level. Very Happy

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Re: Cleverley

Post  QBVILLA on Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:12 pm

Ades the key to success in anything is utilising your strengths. As an example if we swapped jobs we may get by but we wouldn't do it with the required level of success. It's the same with our football team .Gerrard is in my opinion a top class midfielder, the best English central midfielder since Robson was in his pomp. However, you ask him to play like Xavi and you've got yourself an average player at hest. Possession stats are all well and good but you don't get awarded points and win games on possession stats. Spain are currently the finest international side so naturally everyone holds them up as the model to which we should aspire to. I bet you if they didn't have Xavi,Iniesta and Fabregas they'd change their style to suit their strengths. Our downfall is that we take players in their 20s and try to get them to copy the Spanish when they've spent their lives concentrating on power and pace rather than technical ability. It's too late by then. Italy 06, Greece 04 won Championships playing to their strengths. In 06 there were at least five better sides technically than the eyeties and in 04 Greece were probably the worst technically. Didn't matter though, they won. That's what matters.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:27 pm

Players need to learn how to keep possession. More evident then ever after watching yesterdays game.

That's the game nowadays. If your opponent can't get the ball off you, they can't do **** all.

You need a 3 man central midfield these days. Two very good technical players, and one tackler (bonus if they can pass).

Lets look at the current best domestic teams;

Barca - Technical: Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, Tello (Defensive: Busquets, Song, Mascherano)

Real - Technical: Ozil, Khedira, Kaka, Modric (Defensive: Alonso, Diarra, Essien)

Chelsea - Technical: Mata, Hazard, Ramires, Oscar, Marin, Lampard (Defensive: Mikel, Romeu)

Could you make a case for England?

Technical: Oxlade-Chamberlain, Wilshere, Carrick, Milner, Cleverly, Gerrard, Lampard, (Defensive: Parker, maybe Gerrard)

If we were to play that type of football, I'd like to see Roy give this a go;

_________Rooney_______
Young------------Walcott
----The Ox----Wilshere---
________Carrick________ Or even Parker/Milner/Gerrard in that position.

^ I reckon that team could hold the ball well, with Young and Walcott moving more central to support Rooney and Carrick can drop back into defence, when the fullbacks are bombing forward.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  QBVILLA on Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:26 pm

Would that be the same Chelsea who had 30% possession in last season's CL semi v Barca? Proves my point. Chelsea are the perfect example of playing to your strengths for winning results.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:28 pm

QBVILLA wrote:Would that be the same Chelsea who had 30% possession in last season's CL semi v Barca? Proves my point. Chelsea are the perfect example of playing to your strengths for winning results.

Barca usually have about 60-70% possession in every game - doesn't matter against who.

Chelsea are following Barca's play style.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  QBVILLA on Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:06 am

Read your opening statement of your previous post re possession. You've contradicted yourself.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  jak on Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:39 am

QB, once again I must tell you you have knowledge beyond your years.
You'd make an excellent fan of The Arsenal. I'll PM my fellow gooner and we'll see if we can't extend an invite into our very select circle.

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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:02 am

QBVILLA wrote:Read your opening statement of your previous post re possession. You've contradicted yourself.

Did you even watch the game at all? Do you remember what happened in it?
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Re: Cleverley

Post  ADRIAN_1976 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:20 pm

QB i understand where your coming from.. but law of averages shows that the more you have the ball the more chances you have of scoring/winning..

England as have always suffered from that problem.. hence why we have not reach nowhere near enough semi and finals of major tournament..

Even the Italian teams who were well known for being defensively very very tight always knew how to keep possession of the ball..
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Italy had Gattuso, as the hassler/tackler, Pirlo, Camoranesi, De Rossi, etc.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  QBVILLA on Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:02 pm

Jay.P.A wrote:
QBVILLA wrote:Read your opening statement of your previous post re possession. You've contradicted yourself.

Did you even watch the game at all? Do you remember what happened in it?


Well yes, that's why i used it as an example. You bang on about possession football, fair enough it's a widely held opinion but you can't then give Chelsea as an example when they spent 180 mins against Barca watching the opposition have the ball to back up your view. I'm not privvy to the stats but i'm guessing Swansea had better possession stats than Everton and Newcastle last season. Who finished highest? Mourhino's Madrid team didn't play the same style as Barca last season yet they pissed la liga. The art of good management has always been identifying the workforces strength and using it to your benefit. To play the Spanish way we need to be looking at the World Cup in 2026. By that i mean a coaching overhaul of kids who are aged 5-13 now. In the meantime we need to compete and to do that we cannot do so by copying the Spanish style. I don't think it's any coincidence that the PL side most likened to Barca is Arsenal. How many English players has Wenger signed in the last ten years who have been over 21?
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:20 pm

QBVILLA wrote:
Jay.P.A wrote:
QBVILLA wrote:Read your opening statement of your previous post re possession. You've contradicted yourself.

Did you even watch the game at all? Do you remember what happened in it?


Well yes, that's why i used it as an example. You bang on about possession football, fair enough it's a widely held opinion but you can't then give Chelsea as an example when they spent 180 mins against Barca watching the opposition have the ball to back up your view. I'm not privvy to the stats but i'm guessing Swansea had better possession stats than Everton and Newcastle last season. Who finished highest? Mourhino's Madrid team didn't play the same style as Barca last season yet they pissed la liga. The art of good management has always been identifying the workforces strength and using it to your benefit. To play the Spanish way we need to be looking at the World Cup in 2026. By that i mean a coaching overhaul of kids who are aged 5-13 now. In the meantime we need to compete and to do that we cannot do so by copying the Spanish style. I don't think it's any coincidence that the PL side most likened to Barca is Arsenal. How many English players has Wenger signed in the last ten years who have been over 21?

I understand what you're saying. And agree with most of it.

I can give Chelsea as an example because of the players they've signed recently, indicate that they are also going in the same direction as Barcelona, e.g one midfielder who does the dirty work and two technical players who keep the ball, move it from side to side, and move around off the ball all the time, with great wide players who also move around/swap wings to dispel man marking. That's the only reason why I even mentioned them. You can't cherry pick one/two games when the team that doesn't have the possession in the game wins - because if I started listing games when teams like Barca/Real have 60-70% and win I'd be here all night. I also listed Chelsea, because out of 3 of their last 5 games, they've actively had 60%+ possession and won comfortably - they've signed players like Oscar, Marin, Mata, Hazard - all excellent technical players.

And Real are very similar to Barcelona in the way they play football. The difference is that they also utilise their set pieces in the air as well as on the floor - Barcelona tend to keep it on the floor most of the time. The other difference is that they always play an out and out striker - whether it's Benzema or Higuain.

Obviously you've got to play to your teams strengths, and man management is always important. I've never doubted that fact. If you can't match your opponent stride for stride then you've got to take that approach. Chelsea had a lot of luck in their games against Barcelona - they had 2 games. In the first one;



Possession is not the 'be all or end all'. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it is important. That's why you're seeing more and more teams taking this approach on. With more possession, more often then not, you'd conjure up more chances.

On another day, these stats won't matter, and on match day, it'll come down to individual brilliance. As is did with Chelsea vs. Barcelona. Drogba, Ramirez, and Torres.

But hopefully in the future, if we, and I mean England, can keep hold of the ball, we'd be able to close out games while we're winning.
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Re: Cleverley

Post  ADRIAN_1976 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Bloody hell Jay you've become very articulate all of a sudden Very Happy
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:34 pm

jocolor
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Re: Cleverley

Post  QBVILLA on Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:23 pm

ADRIAN_1976 wrote:Bloody hell Jay you've become very articulate all of a sudden Very Happy



A well reasoned debate without insults. This site has lost it's identity hasn't it Shitdick?
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Re: Cleverley

Post  Billy Bonds on Fri Oct 19, 2012 6:09 pm

ADRIAN_1976 wrote:Bloody hell Jay you've become very articulate all of a sudden Very Happy

google

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Re: Cleverley

Post  Jay.P.A on Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:16 pm

Billy Bonds wrote:
ADRIAN_1976 wrote:Bloody hell Jay you've become very articulate all of a sudden Very Happy

google

Lol what?

Mark probably googles 'google'. Razz
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Re: Cleverley

Post  ADRIAN_1976 on Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:51 am

QBVILLA wrote:
ADRIAN_1976 wrote:Bloody hell Jay you've become very articulate all of a sudden Very Happy



A well reasoned debate without insults. This site has lost it's identity hasn't it Shitdick?

That wasn't you in ur boy racer in Wales yesterday was it Suspect
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Re: Cleverley

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